“Testify to Love” was released in 1997 by the contemporary Christian group, Avalon. It has been re-released by former Avalon members Michael Passons and Melissa Greene, and Ty Herndon, country music artist. The song was re-released and reframed to speak to love, affirmation and inclusion especially for our LGBTQIA+ siblings. Unbound sat down with the artists to discuss this monumental moment. “Testify to Love” can be streamed wherever you get your music.
Listen to the full interview on the Unbound YouTube channel.
Lee Catoe:
Well, hello to my wonderful guests. So Unbound, does interviews every once in a while. And maybe a week ago, I looked on Instagram and I saw something that really brought a tear to my eye. I’m going to be very honest with all y’all. I grew up listening to Avalon. I was born in 1988. And I feel like 1997, 1996 era was very formational for me. I was almost a 10-year-old and I listened to y’all’s music growing up. Ty, I listened to yours. I listened to all kinds of contemporary Christian music, but Avalon was the thing, the group that I listened to. I remember when “Testify to Love” came out and it really took us all by storm if we were in that realm and we heard it everywhere. And then I saw that you were re-releasing it and being a little queer boy from the South, it really did touch my heart, like very deeply to see that y’all are living who y’all were created to be.
And as someone who grew up listening to your music, trying to figure that out and reconciling those things, I don’t think you realize how big of a moment that is for so many of us to be able to reconcile our contemporary Christian past and then seeing y’all re-release it in that context. So first and foremost, I just want to say thank you for doing that as a little queer boy from South Carolina who took a long time to reconcile being a person of faith and also being queer and being Southern and growing up on this music. So I really appreciate it, y’all. So I just wanted to say that.
Michael Passons:
That’s very humbling, actually. And you know, we might’ve thought a lot of ourselves in ’97 because it took off like it did, but it took off again this week. So it’s maybe the song more than the messenger because it’s such a beautiful song in a way it’s taken off twice in a row. I think this message is what’s resonating with people. And like you said, now that it’s more of an inclusive message, I think it’s even more rocket fuel for this.
Ty Herndon:
Yeah, I have a little problem with all of this. I’m a performer and for this last week, I don’t cry a lot. Goodness, I’m doing it now. I can’t even talk about it. Number one to see my friend, Michael, fly like this is so beautiful and it’s not really for us, it’s about the truth and about love. And for everyone claiming that because it already lives in you. But to see all of these testimonies…I cannot even talk.
I guess I have stuff to heal too, you know. My husband just laughed at me little bit. He’s like, oh my god, you’re a crybaby this week and I said I am…I love all these people. I love my friends and to just see people opening up. It’s beautiful. It is beautiful. It really is.
Michael Passons:
You mentioned stories. People, and I’ve said this at other places, people aren’t just commenting with an emoji heart. You know, they are writing their stories to us and some of them are joyful. Some of them are heartbreaking. Some of them, if I try to repeat them to you, I’m going to break down crying. And so, I read them all because if you’re going to take the time to send it to me, I’m going to honor that and I’m going to read it and we are overwhelmed and humbled by it all.
Ty Herndon:
And what we got some lip-syncers.
Lee Catoe:
They really are. And I will even say, I even sang it at my church back at home. We had the instrumental and everything else. And I will say y’all influenced my own voice because I tried to emulate you. I sang a high tenor. But I do think y’all really did influence a whole generation of people. But I wonder, Melissa, how has this been for you?
Melissa Greene:
It’s been lovely and like they said the most overwhelming last six days. I think when we did this, we first sang this last year at Ty’s event the Concert for Love and Acceptance and Michael and I have sung it a bunch over the years post Avalon days. But we’d sang it and sort of reclaimed it and had this moment for him last June and that was beautiful in and of itself that he could reclaim this, that he could sing this standing on his own two feet, sure of who he was and presenting himself fully.
And so, then when Ty mentioned, no, let’s actually re-record this and I’d like to do this together. I mean, I honestly thought this was going to be such a sweet and powerful moment for Michael period. Just thought it was that. And I thought this was such a lovely moment for Ty to extend even his platform and his resources to do this for us and invite us in. Like, I just thought it was going to be such a sweet moment. And it is, but it’s also so much more.
It speaks to how needed this is right now in these times and what’s happening in our world and within Christian spaces and religious spaces. And it’s just so deeply meaningful. It’s meaningful to be a part of it in the small way that we thought it was going impact people and now in this very large expansive way that it’s continuing to impact. It’s overwhelming.
Lee Catoe:
Yeah, we need it. We definitely need it. You speak to all the stuff that’s happening around us in this country, and I think because of how a lot of the things that are happening in politics is also speaking in the faith communities and how faith is being used to justify some of these things. And so I wanted to ask what does it mean for y’all to reframe this music? Because as I was saying, I grew up listening to either country music or contemporary Christian music. So y’all coming together is like my childhood really. And yet those genres are, stereotype or not, they’re kind of connected to a more conservative ideology and theologies. And some of us, again, it was very hard for us to reconcile who we were. And some of us were like so gay and into these things like I went to Winter Jam and I went to like all these things. And yet now that you are kind of reframing this music, what does that mean for you, especially in a time such as this? Cause I think that’s also important for people to hear.
Ty Herndon:
Well, I’ll jump in real quick. I do believe that this just may have been divinely written a long time ago and it filled a beautiful space of worship. It clearly was implanted in people’s hearts and then it was kind of…I can’t have this anymore. I don’t think that I need to love this anymore.
And the way music works, it always does. It finds a divine place. It heals it. We use it to worship, heal, to mourn. And just every now and then, like right now, it finds a space that opens up someone’s heart. And you know, this was divinely placed not only then, it’s divinely placed now. The full circle-ness of it, from Michael to, you know, all the way up to politics to people that agree with it, to people that don’t, you cannot argue. When you see thousands of people’s eyeballs on video posts and their heart is seen because of a song, because of a story, they just are rejoicing. And so it doesn’t matter. I speak for all of us. It doesn’t matter about the naysayers or the haters because there’s too much love in this tidal wave, in this tsunami of a true message about what love is.
And I think that’s what we all should stand for. I know that these people that I love and work with, I’ve always said that they’ve always been that way. And so let the tsunami continue of healing. I’ve read the words probably a thousand times, “My heart is healed today.” If we set out to do that, that’s not our job. We just set out to just send a joyful noise out and I got to stop now… Woo, hallelujah.
Michael Passons:
Well, Lee mentioned something about progressing to where we are. We all started out in a very similar place, very conservative like you. You read Ty’s new book and it talks about his bringing up in a small Alabama church, (points to himself) small Mississippi church. And we’ve just, in our own time, made this same journey together to where we accept our identity, ourselves and we stand firmly in the light of the acceptance of our Creator.
And that’s a lot for some people to wrap their mind around. And so, hopefully this starts a ripple that will someday turn into a tidal wave that helps change our culture.
Listen to the full interview on the Unbound YouTube channel.
Melissa Greene:
Yes, I think there’s something also in the expansiveness of these lyrics specifically, like this song specifically, that speaks to something even beyond a Christian faith, honestly. Like it speaks directly to the heart of a Christian faith for many, but it also speaks to beyond that. I, for me personally, and three of us as individuals, share similar space in our worldview now, but we all landed a little bit differently in lots of things. So, this is me speaking for me only.
There are many songs that I recorded and I sang in church and I sang with Avalon that I will never sing again. I cannot reclaim that; I don’t want to reclaim it; it does not fit within my broader lens now. This song, however, not only does it perfectly fit, it actually fits better now. I think us choosing to testify, to talk about, to share about a love that literally all of us are created in and can live out of and that we can see literally in the natural world around us…this song speaks to all of that. And so, for us to sing it in an even more broad way now and offer it to people…and this is also what I love…and you see this in the comments and we’ve already spoken to it a little bit, but everybody’s story is slightly different and the healing that they need. Many of them are within the LGBTQ community and they need this so desperately. I’m honored as an ally to stand here and literally support background vocals on this song and then support others in this too.
Also others that are not in the LGBTQ community that just left the church maybe because of how the church treated the LGBTQ community or for how the church deals with bigotry and racism and we could go on forever and they’re like wait I’m healed, I still feel held underneath this broad umbrella and I want to reclaim this now not because I need to be back in the church or not because I’m still Christian or not because I’m LGBT but because I believe this idea of love is for everyone and if we acted in love and spoke with love that would heal the world.
So to me, that is the power of what’s happening in this moment with this song. Like it’s covering all of it.
Lee Catoe:
Yeah, think that makes so much sense because even when the original came out, it was a little bit more broad. The message was a little bit more broad than some other kind of contemporary Christian songs that were out there. But I also wonder…and I always have had this conversation with people that I wish that contemporary Christian music did more of this kind of “reclaim something” because of the ideology around it all. And it doesn’t really have to be that way. And so I wonder about how y’all have seen these industries and Ty, like even country music kind of has these ideologies surrounding it, but it’s not always like that. We always do a broad brushstroke over all these genres and there’s always difference within it.
But I wonder how y’all have seen these genres progress up until now? Because there are times where I plug up and listen to a contemporary Christian song just out of nostalgia, because I want something to connect me to the past but I do wonder how y’all see it progress and maybe where you hope it will be in the future or what you’re seeing now in the realm of your own genres? I wonder about that.
Ty Herndon:
Well, first of all, the release of this is finally for people not wrapped in trauma. It’s something that lifted them out of their trauma and that they could sing it again. But I would also like to point out, you know, it’s kind of historical that two faith-filled, God loving LGBT people and one great ally are sitting for this second week at the top of the Christian charts. And I have nothing…I have only love for the Lord. My grandma taught me that if you put a thousand hearts on the table, you see a thousand beautiful hearts. You don’t see race, color, sex. You just see a thousand beautiful hearts that God made. So that’s what I see when I see that at the top of the charts right now. And it won’t be what everybody sees, but it is a moment to make people think, because I will not stand down from my faith. And you know, I’m a pig farmer from Alabama…I love the lord and I found my way with that and I will hold up a mighty sword to anyone that’s trying to hurt someone else and especially in the name of God. Somedays [God’s} a HE or SHE, sometimes [God’s] a drag queen…
To say how it’s changed, I can speak in country music. We have seen a lot of change, a lot more open hearts. I’m in country, I’m not in the gospel world, these guys were in that. I don’t know the answer to that question. But I think this is probably landmark in a lot of ways. And so we’ll just have to see what happens. But I know that I can speak for all of us. I know we’re going to keep making music. We’re going to keep making music that matters and maybe even together. We’ll see.
Michael Passons:
But I will say that I feel a little genre-less right now because I haven’t been part of Christian music for many, many decades. And I wasn’t going for that this time around, but I’m glad it’s landed there. Wherever it can land and reach people, that’s great. And so I’m still figuring out my genre. I just love that it’s being so well received and it’s just so overwhelming. And, you know, it’ll be a week in the morning or midnight tonight that it released and none of us saw this coming. And it’s just such a humbling experience really.
Ty Herndon:
I can tell you this, it usually takes me 18 to 20 to 450,000 weeks to get to number one on anything. For a monumental week, thank you to everyone out there because it really has been mind-blowing. And I try not to think about it too much, but here’s what I woke up three mornings in a row going, “gosh, how does Michael feel?!” I called him, said, are you okay?
More than okay, but you know, just to return to music is phenomenal for all of us. Having Melissa Green…she is my go to singing girl from heaven. To have her say yes to this was beautiful.
Michael Passons:
I want to say something about what Melissa said. “I was just a background on this,” and that’s not the way I see it. You bring a spirit to this song. That is so much.
Yeah, her radiance…you just shine girl and all of us together is a perfect storm for a little mixture of rocket fuel that made this song. It would have soared anyway. It’s the song, the song’s beautiful, but I feel like the three of us together and our spirits, it’s just a great combination.
Ty Herndon:
When you see the video coming next week, want you to pay attention. Melissa has the most beautiful hand language that you’ve ever seen. Your hand language throughout the whole thing is so great.
Lee Catoe:
Yeah, Melissa, I always loved your voice, by the way. Wonderful, wonderful. When they say you soar, you really do.
Michael Passons:
That’s the C9 that she hits…
Ty Herndon:
There was a divine thread happening here that none of us really saw but not surprised really. There is a divine thread of friendship and doing what’s right and standing up for all communities and I’m so happy that the LGBTQ community feels so loved because whatever you are out there…if you’re sitting on a gravel road feeling rejected and thrown out, you know, this song is for you too. This song is for everyone who’s feeling a little bit broken on their path. It’s expansive. For me, if I left this earth tomorrow, this will be the thing I’m most proud of. And I’ve got to do a lot. But I said that without crying…there you go.
Lee Catoe:
Yeah, well, I think it just speaks to the need that some of us were yearning for. You know, like I was saying earlier, I think we just grew up not being able to reconcile any of these things. Like we were always taught you couldn’t be a Christian and be queer. Like people tried to get my accent. Like I even tried to get rid of my accent because I was like, you can’t be where I’m from and be gay. And date and be like everybody else but now it’s like one of my best qualities. It’s like the thing that landed my husband and it’s one of those things that I feel makes us who we are but many of us were told we couldn’t reconcile those things and I think seeing y’all do this gives us examples. I mean people are really surprised when I say I’m a pastor…I’m a queer minister. I’m ordained.
I can do all the things a minister does. I wear robes. I wear a collar, and people don’t know how to reconcile that either. But I feel like in the more mainstream of things, having a song like this and having y’all be a part of it and being who you are and not be ashamed of that, I feel like people are yearning for that more and more these days of how do I reconcile who I am and where I’m from? And obviously ask those hard questions of being from the South, you have to ask questions about racism and all those things. But how do we also reconcile being from those places and being who we are? And I think because of people’s yearning to see an example of that, I feel like that is also how the divine works too. It’s like y’all met a need. Y’all met a need that so many of us were yearning for.
And I can’t tell you how many people I’ve talked to that have listened to this song and this is the same story – I grew up listening to this song and we didn’t know we could be who we were and listen to this at the same time and have people singing these things that are just like us. So I think y’all met a need that so many people really yearned for. And I think that’s why you’re seeing the response of it.
Ty Herndon:
I always say the church lives in you, you don’t live in the church. And you have an opportunity to build your own congregation. And guess what? No one can kick you out of your own church. So, if this song is taking people to church, then stand in your kitchen, get the Holy Spirit goddess for everyone. Yes, that’s what I’m seeing. I have to be honest, the whole deconstruction thing, I didn’t know a lot about that.
And all I see is so much pain in people that had to take that path. And now I understand that it was the path they needed. But what I want to say is this, yes, deconstruct from the trauma and the church, but you know, don’t deconstruct from God because you’re his beautiful child, that’s just the truth. And, they’re feeling that in the song, then Michael hits that high note and he holds it. I mean, come on.
Melissa Greene:
I think the only thing I feel led to add is after what you’re talking about Lee, I do think people hearing this song are feeling seen and feeling not just healed or that they have the ability to heal, that they should be allowed to heal. And to me, it goes back to my deepest critique of most, and I say most clearly Christian spaces that I was a part of, the contemporary Christian music world and then later the church world where I was ordained and pastored for eight years in a progressive church space. And, pastoring my time there on the road, I also did prison work for over six years where I take concerts to prison. And later when I was post church and I worked in a middle school substituting, I just started realizing that people everywhere in all of these spaces, most people do not understand their inherent worth. They do not start with that. They start lower than that. They think they need to earn love. They think there is a condition whether we’re talking about God which all of you men have so beautifully spoken of a God that truly loves you. It’s like you can’t get to fully understand and honoring others equally if you don’t honor yourself and so I found we have a worth problem and so helping people understand their inherent worth then our inherent connections to each other in the world around us and our responsibility… that’s the lens from which I live my life and that’s my platform now and that’s what I sing from and what I speak from and what I write about. And I think that too many have experienced such way less than that. So if anything, I think through this song, it’s also saying, I have an ability to testify about a love that is much larger than any of us, includes all of us, and that I deserve that like I did in my own skin and on my own two feet, or in my own way. So we want to remind people of that.
Lee Catoe:
It’s so helpful because I do think it starts from a different orientation, right? Like you come to something, if you know you have self-worth and you believe in a God who created us and we are worthy because many of us were taught we’re unworthy until we have to make a choice or until we do all these things to make us worthy to earn the love of God. And that’s one of the reasons why I became a minister because of that message of actually, you don’t have to earn anything from God. God is here whether you want God to be here or not, working in things, whether you realize it or not, there is no ability to choose that love because we are literally just given it as we are birthed, even before we’re born. I mean, it says in Scripture even in the womb. And I think that that is so important for a lot of people to hear because now we are seeing all these things come at us to say we are unworthy or because we’re different, we’re not a part of the kingdom of God or we’re not a part of anything else. And I think it is so important that people are reminded of that. Some people just take that for granted in some way, but that was grilled into us when we were born. And into our churches. And so, I think the more we say it, I think all the better, even if we have to repeat ourselves. And that’s what I tell people all the time. Keep saying it, even if you repeat yourself, because somebody is going to hear it that needs to hear it that day. So, I think that’s so helpful.
Michael Passons:
You know, it’s entrenched in us and in some faith circles even down to our great hymns where we’re singing, Amazing Grace, “a wretch like me”, and earlier translations, I understand, even said “worm like me.” And so, we were taught that at a fundamental level. And then also that becomes our inner voice. And what has really given me great healing is to come to the place where I don’t listen to that negative inner voice because what you speak in your mind can manifest into reality. So, I just want to speak positivity and speak to the inherent worth that we have.
Lee Catoe:
And I think that’s so needed. It’s really important. And I’m glad people are getting examples of it. But I did also want to ask, just maybe one last thing. I do wonder what is next and what do you hope is next for you? I know, Ty, you have some things going on and all of you have a lot of stuff, but I wanted to ask that before y’all have to go. What is next for you? Are there plans for more stuff…I wonder about what’s next.
Ty Herndon:
I’m happy to tell you that Michael will be doing more music. He’ll be doing an EP coming up. We do know that…of original songs and I feel quite certain Melissa and I get to sing on that at some point. My book is out right now. What Matters Most? We’re in New York City today. We’re on a leg of the book tour. And gosh, just music and clearly beautiful joy around the world.
Melissa Greene:
I have a forthcoming book. It’s my memoir and tentatively titled, Testify to Love: Why I Left the Church and Keep Choosing Curiosity Over Fear. So I’m excited about continuing to write and share my story and excited about doing more fun things together. The three of us have been, again, friends for a really long time. Mike and I have been singing together for a really long time and we’ve found more and more opportunities in the last year or two, a couple of years, I guess, where we get to sing together and we love it.
Michael Passons:
Right. We do. Yeah. Look forward to that.
And you know we have a video coming out next week for this. And so that’s the immediate next and a special surprise for June.
Ty Herndon:
It may have a little thump thump to it.
Michael Passons:
And a disco ball.
Lee Catoe:
Well, we will look forward to that. And I will just say that I have always dreamed of having some form of progressive Christian music radio station or some form of a conglomerate of people doing all similar stuff. And I think it would be so, so needed for many of us who really enjoy this type of music but also know that it’s coming from a place of healthy theology and love and all those things. And Melissa, I also do a podcast and when your book comes out, we would love to have you on here because I think the more we talk about our stories and the more we’re our authentic selves, that is where I think you will be surprised where God will take us, when we are who God created us to be.
I am so grateful that y’all found the time to do this with me. And just so you know, again, doing this has helped many of us. And I just want to thank y’all so much for doing it. So, thank you.
Listen to the full interview on the Unbound YouTube channel.
News release announcing the release of the song: https://aristopr.com/groundbreaking-country-superstar-ty-herndon-and-avalons-michael-passons-reclaim-a-classic-with-all-star-remake-of-testify-to-love/
This interview was conducted by the editor of Unbound, Lee Catoe.
